Generally, I do not comment on the controversial topics such as this. But after reading reports on the Ram Sethu and the passions it arose, I just couldn't resist saying something.
How do we know if Ramayana or Mahabharata happened?? How would Archeologists and anthropologists establish historicity of the same?
First, we, in India culturally, very inept in documenting any historical happenings and generally passed on orally (our mechanism of secrecy and protection of Intellectual Property). So, there is no knowing of what is actually said, and interpreted by future generations. Actually, what is told as a story could have happened millenia ago as passed on...
We all know about "Chinese whispers". We could all generally agree, that any story ever told either reflects our dreams, aspirations, inspiration from a fact or collation of all the above. The stories are aimed at entertaining, entralling, inspiring awe for some fantastic, often exaggarated events. For example, almost all the civilizations, in one form or the other spoke about flying machines or fantastic creatures such as Dragons or Phoenix reflecting their aspirations and a sense of fantasy. Hence, some of the events would have happened, may not necessary as a single story in series (that means the story might have been strung together with various fascinating events at different points of time), the stories would have been enhanced, dramatized and fine tuned as the thought progressed. So, the progression might have been, an event becoming a stories, stories embellished to become legends, Legends becoming myths... Natually, since, the stories have evolved over time, they may also reflect the cultural aspects and realities of those times.
The second perspective is scientific, for every conclusion, there needs to be some material evidence. Say for example, when we say, dinosaurs existed and perished about a 65 Million years ago in the Jurassic period, first of all, we need to establish the existence of these creatures (which is done by the skeletal remains and fossils), Their age needs to be determined (by carbon dating or DNA evidence). Then the next challenge is to prove that they were extinct...for which, initially, there would be a set of hypotheses (like epidemic, hit by a comet, earth quakes etc.,) and one by one, the options will be eliminated based on the evidence collected. All these are done based on inference, circumstantial and material evidence.....
What is surprising in Ram Sethu theory is all the numbers projected in the media seems to be a little challenging to put together a timeline. According to Hindu Vedic tradition, there are 4 eons which are Krita 1,728,000 years Before Now (BN) , Treta 1,296,000 years BN , Dwapara 864,000 BN and Kaliyuga started 432,000 BN. Ramayana happened in Threta Yuga. Some eminent vedic pundits and scholars put Threta Yuga as 1.7Million years (placing it of the advent of "Homo" species particularly, Homo Habilis). Mysteriously, they were only a species separate from other Humunids. Is this the reason why, in Ramayana, Humans (sapiens) and Vanara (primates) who belong to same Genus, communicate and mingle freely with each other?? This is a very plausible theory and is widely quoted in the Analysis of Vedic Scholars. The same reasoning is applied by Hindu scholars to date the formation of Ram sethu aka Adams Bridge, whose formation dates back to about the same time...
Pundits have used Scientific reasoning to substantiate the age of the Adams bridge. Should Vedic scholar's numbers reconcile scientifically, they have to peg the Mathsyavataram / Kurmavataram at 360 Million years (well before the age of Dinosaurs). It is claimed that Bharatam happened 50 generations later. This means Bharata (Which is Dwapara Yuga) has happened 2500 years after Ramayana (if each generation is 50 years). Hence, in best case scenario, both these epics should have happened in a span of 2500 years. If an epoch such as Yuga is say, 50-100 generations, then each Yuga may not be a fraction of Million years!! So, there is only so much reconciliation we could do with a religious claim.
Now, coming to scientific calculations.... Let us start with a brief story of life on earth. Single celled organisms called "Archaean" started in sea 4600 Million years in sea and an Amphibian life with "Carboneferous" started 360 Million years ago. If the theory of evolution and all the support for Human evolution that needs to be considered, first human was known as " Australopithecus afarensis" lived in North Africa about 3 Million years ago. It is generally believed man's hominid ancestors did not leave their African home until about two million years ago. There is, no evidence of a human presence in the Indian subcontinent before roughly 250,000 to 300,000 years ago(Did Threta yuga happened before the Human ever appeared on the continent?).. It is scientifically agreed that the "Fire" is discovered by Homo sapiens only about 20,000 years ago. The earliest known civilization is "Chinese", which happened to be called "Neolithic" or Stone age that occurred 8000 - 3700 years ago. The societies evolved, literature, medicine evolved. So, all that we know "Archeologically" about our Human civilization can only be reliably cover or history to the last 20,000 years. Anything beyond is a realm of mythology and speculation!!
Given the advances and society described in Ramayana/Mahabharata, we can reasonably sure that the societies are well formed and we can nail them, at best to have occurred from 5000 - 2000 years ago (based on the culture, society, science and astronomy, political scenario). For example, when we read descriptions of stories about castles, it tells us some engineering, architectural thoughts and principles. All the "anthropological" history with Sword making, Jewelry means, metallurgical advances etc., deals in the last 6000-3000 years. Even Harappan and Indus valley civilization of ancient India is estimated as 5000 years old. Even if Rama predated this age, it could not have been more than 8000 years old (oldest known Chinese stone age) or for benefits sake, make it 10K years old!!
If we accept the above, Adams bridge could not have been constructed by Human by no stretch of imagination (at least with the knowledge and means at his disposal during that time), but it can be conclusively said, it is "God" constructed, before human ever appeared on the Indain subcontinent and is, most likely 1.7 Million years old..as claimed. Vedic scholars have apparently has a lot of ground to cover (actually, there is no need) to rationalize the mythological events with the Hindu eons and archeological/ antropological progression. Trying to retrofit science to Vedas is next to impossible and isn't rational. The two realms are different. One is fantasy another is established science. Religion and mythology transcends reality and should hold its place nevertheless. Hence, the debate to mix and match, trying to prove "science" in mythological stories and epics will be a futile exercise.
To prove historicity of Rama will be as difficult as establishing the existence of God. Whether Rama existed or not is a mute question, as he is present in the deep conscience of the faithful. Sometimes, we will have to just go by leap of faith and and respect the sentiments of majority of the people. But, by knowing the facts and giving a rational thinking will help us make conscious choice rather than giving in to passion or emotion.
How do we know if Ramayana or Mahabharata happened?? How would Archeologists and anthropologists establish historicity of the same?
First, we, in India culturally, very inept in documenting any historical happenings and generally passed on orally (our mechanism of secrecy and protection of Intellectual Property). So, there is no knowing of what is actually said, and interpreted by future generations. Actually, what is told as a story could have happened millenia ago as passed on...
We all know about "Chinese whispers". We could all generally agree, that any story ever told either reflects our dreams, aspirations, inspiration from a fact or collation of all the above. The stories are aimed at entertaining, entralling, inspiring awe for some fantastic, often exaggarated events. For example, almost all the civilizations, in one form or the other spoke about flying machines or fantastic creatures such as Dragons or Phoenix reflecting their aspirations and a sense of fantasy. Hence, some of the events would have happened, may not necessary as a single story in series (that means the story might have been strung together with various fascinating events at different points of time), the stories would have been enhanced, dramatized and fine tuned as the thought progressed. So, the progression might have been, an event becoming a stories, stories embellished to become legends, Legends becoming myths... Natually, since, the stories have evolved over time, they may also reflect the cultural aspects and realities of those times.
The second perspective is scientific, for every conclusion, there needs to be some material evidence. Say for example, when we say, dinosaurs existed and perished about a 65 Million years ago in the Jurassic period, first of all, we need to establish the existence of these creatures (which is done by the skeletal remains and fossils), Their age needs to be determined (by carbon dating or DNA evidence). Then the next challenge is to prove that they were extinct...for which, initially, there would be a set of hypotheses (like epidemic, hit by a comet, earth quakes etc.,) and one by one, the options will be eliminated based on the evidence collected. All these are done based on inference, circumstantial and material evidence.....
What is surprising in Ram Sethu theory is all the numbers projected in the media seems to be a little challenging to put together a timeline. According to Hindu Vedic tradition, there are 4 eons which are Krita 1,728,000 years Before Now (BN) , Treta 1,296,000 years BN , Dwapara 864,000 BN and Kaliyuga started 432,000 BN. Ramayana happened in Threta Yuga. Some eminent vedic pundits and scholars put Threta Yuga as 1.7Million years (placing it of the advent of "Homo" species particularly, Homo Habilis). Mysteriously, they were only a species separate from other Humunids. Is this the reason why, in Ramayana, Humans (sapiens) and Vanara (primates) who belong to same Genus, communicate and mingle freely with each other?? This is a very plausible theory and is widely quoted in the Analysis of Vedic Scholars. The same reasoning is applied by Hindu scholars to date the formation of Ram sethu aka Adams Bridge, whose formation dates back to about the same time...
Pundits have used Scientific reasoning to substantiate the age of the Adams bridge. Should Vedic scholar's numbers reconcile scientifically, they have to peg the Mathsyavataram / Kurmavataram at 360 Million years (well before the age of Dinosaurs). It is claimed that Bharatam happened 50 generations later. This means Bharata (Which is Dwapara Yuga) has happened 2500 years after Ramayana (if each generation is 50 years). Hence, in best case scenario, both these epics should have happened in a span of 2500 years. If an epoch such as Yuga is say, 50-100 generations, then each Yuga may not be a fraction of Million years!! So, there is only so much reconciliation we could do with a religious claim.
Now, coming to scientific calculations.... Let us start with a brief story of life on earth. Single celled organisms called "Archaean" started in sea 4600 Million years in sea and an Amphibian life with "Carboneferous" started 360 Million years ago. If the theory of evolution and all the support for Human evolution that needs to be considered, first human was known as " Australopithecus afarensis" lived in North Africa about 3 Million years ago. It is generally believed man's hominid ancestors did not leave their African home until about two million years ago. There is, no evidence of a human presence in the Indian subcontinent before roughly 250,000 to 300,000 years ago(Did Threta yuga happened before the Human ever appeared on the continent?).. It is scientifically agreed that the "Fire" is discovered by Homo sapiens only about 20,000 years ago. The earliest known civilization is "Chinese", which happened to be called "Neolithic" or Stone age that occurred 8000 - 3700 years ago. The societies evolved, literature, medicine evolved. So, all that we know "Archeologically" about our Human civilization can only be reliably cover or history to the last 20,000 years. Anything beyond is a realm of mythology and speculation!!
Given the advances and society described in Ramayana/Mahabharata, we can reasonably sure that the societies are well formed and we can nail them, at best to have occurred from 5000 - 2000 years ago (based on the culture, society, science and astronomy, political scenario). For example, when we read descriptions of stories about castles, it tells us some engineering, architectural thoughts and principles. All the "anthropological" history with Sword making, Jewelry means, metallurgical advances etc., deals in the last 6000-3000 years. Even Harappan and Indus valley civilization of ancient India is estimated as 5000 years old. Even if Rama predated this age, it could not have been more than 8000 years old (oldest known Chinese stone age) or for benefits sake, make it 10K years old!!
If we accept the above, Adams bridge could not have been constructed by Human by no stretch of imagination (at least with the knowledge and means at his disposal during that time), but it can be conclusively said, it is "God" constructed, before human ever appeared on the Indain subcontinent and is, most likely 1.7 Million years old..as claimed. Vedic scholars have apparently has a lot of ground to cover (actually, there is no need) to rationalize the mythological events with the Hindu eons and archeological/ antropological progression. Trying to retrofit science to Vedas is next to impossible and isn't rational. The two realms are different. One is fantasy another is established science. Religion and mythology transcends reality and should hold its place nevertheless. Hence, the debate to mix and match, trying to prove "science" in mythological stories and epics will be a futile exercise.
To prove historicity of Rama will be as difficult as establishing the existence of God. Whether Rama existed or not is a mute question, as he is present in the deep conscience of the faithful. Sometimes, we will have to just go by leap of faith and and respect the sentiments of majority of the people. But, by knowing the facts and giving a rational thinking will help us make conscious choice rather than giving in to passion or emotion.
5 comments:
First of all, nicely written article.
I can say all the dating by the vedic books and the puranas may be are erroneous. But the record of the presence of Vanaras in Rama's army is the startling relic that is giving us some strange hints that we are still probably unable to comprehend. When Ramayana was written it was not possible for the anyone to know about the evolutionary theory (or is it?). No one knew about Australopithecus or other similar species. Is it just a figment of imagination from the mind of Valmiki? But why vanara? Is it just a coincidence?
There seems to me a lot of information lost on the way to todays date. Sadly no amount of serious research is done on this as far as I know. Is it because people have given up? Is it because its too hard to uncover for the present day human?
They had enough knowledge about invisible planets and nakshatras.Vimanas(google search ,youtube) ,flying machines vedas talking about its fuel . Was not possible to build a bridge
They had enough knowledge about invisible planets and nakshatras.Vimanas(google search ,youtube) ,flying machines vedas talking about its fuel . Was not possible to build a bridge
I want to mention that at the time world was not divided by the different type of religions so there was no qestion of putting a particular name for prectices what HINDUS were practiced. They were simpley enjoying the life and progesssing in each field.
Rishis were the scientists of that time they were revered because of their knowledge and research they have done. What general people were not understanding they called that "chamatkaars".
At that time they know that how indian continent was formed as tale of Sagar-manthan, even now the everest is called sagar matha.
140 million years ago the Indian Plate formed part of the supercontinent Gondwana together with modern Africa, Australia, Antarctica, and South America. Gondwana broke up as these continents drifted apart with different velocities,a process which led to the opening of the Indian Ocean. When that gondwana land collide with the eurasian plane there was evolution of Himalaya which also contained the everest which was used for manthan. They explained these things in tale but they know the scientific geolocial changes created the same.
Dashavatara as picturing a sequence from simplistic life forms to more complex life-forms in a definitive order.
Matsya - fish, the first class of vertebrates; evolved in water
Kurma(Kachhappa) - amphibious (living in both water and land; but not to confuse with the vertebrate class amphibians)
Varaha - wild land animal
Narasimha - beings that are half-animal and half-human (indicative of emergence of human thoughts and intelligence in powerful wild nature)
Vamana - short, premature human beings
Parasurama - early humans living in forests and using weapons
Rama - humans living in community, beginning of civil society
Krishna - humans practicing animal husbandry, politically advanced societies
Buddha - humans finding enlightenment
Kalki - advanced humans with great powers of destruction.
And may example are there.
Wonderfully written Surya...
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